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  • imac
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:02 PM #101

1. Yes regardless of whether it's a b2b or b2c

2. Yes.  Purchase an item for a gift to be shipped to someone else.  Hence billing/shipping are different.

It's not a good idea to create extra fields for such rare case. And this can be solved by a comment. 

 

4. Amazon is probably easiest.  They support a variety of payment methods (which relate to multiple billing addresses for a registered user) and a variety of ship-to addresses.  So it's a many-many relationship.  They use the last-selected as the default for the current order but it's easily changed via radio buttons and/or "new" for both shipping and billing (actually they call it payment method but most require at least a zipcode).

 

Any payment method other than CC probably requires full billing/shipping address info where CC probably just requires CC.  However, Square will use billing zipcode in addition to zipcode entered with card data to more fully detect fraudulent activity..

 

I did not find billing address on Amazon. Only multiple shipping profiles. If you can provide me with screen that would help.


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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:07 PM #102

Say what? Are you trying to eliminate the use of CS Cart in USA? We rely heavily on the billing address for fraud protection. All US banks participate in address verification. Many of our customers regardless of B2B or B2C ship to alternate addresses. How can you so easily generalize billing and shipping. We do not accept credit cards from International customers because most do not provide address verification and those customers are forced to an alternate payment like PayPal.

 

 

Just in case it wasn't absolutely clear we need billing and shipping address fields. It is very easy for the customer to tick a button to ship to an alternate address.

Can you please list the payment methods you use in your store. Which of them require billing address from you store in order to process the transaction?

From my experience billing address could be used by a payment method in case it's required for any reason, I mean on payment server. 


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  • AVO-Ken
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:41 PM #103

 

 

It's not a good idea to create extra fields for such rare case. And this can be solved by a comment. 

 

 

I did not find billing address on Amazon. Only multiple shipping profiles. If you can provide me with screen that would help.

 

 

 

Amazon is not a good web store to compare checkout methods. Amazon absolutely has billing addresses and it is located in your account details along with the payment methods that you set-up. At checkout they ask what payment method you want to use and where you want to ship to.  They also automatically store your various shipping locations for you.

 

The problem is that Amazon REQUIRES customers to have an account to make a purchase. 

 

Removing the billing address only works if you are going to force all customers to have an account. This is not a good idea and will cause customers to be lost. Most people only want to set-up accounts with stores that they frequently shop at like Amazon. Additionaly, if you require account set-up, you actually create more steps for the customer to checkout than simply leaving the billing address there.



 
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:47 PM #104

Can you please list the payment methods you use in your store. Which of them require billing address from you store in order to process the transaction?

From my experience billing address could be used by a payment method in case it's required for any reason, I mean on payment server. 

 

Why you are so straight against billing adress?

Everyone told you we need it.

 

The shipping adress ist not the correct tax billing adress.

Why you dint believe that?

 

If we need it in checkout, we can discuss about it, but we need it in database.

On your way right now, we have no full data from the customer.

Name, Mail = contact

Street, country = shipping

 

On your invoice template didnt stand the name of customer anymore.

What is your solution to create an invoice with the buyers name on it, when the shipping is different?

 

Amazon collect billing adress it by registration. Amazon didnt allow guest order.

Later i can add more shippingadresses.


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  • AVO-Ken
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:57 PM #105

Can you please list the payment methods you use in your store. Which of them require billing address from you store in order to process the transaction?

From my experience billing address could be used by a payment method in case it's required for any reason, I mean on payment server. 

 

We use PayFlow Pro to process Visa, MasterCard, AMEX, Discover and they all use Street Address, Zip Code and Credit Card Security Code to prevent fraud. As a merchant, we can decide the rules that we want to apply to accept and reject credit cards.

 

auth.jpg

 

 

We also allow customers to use PayPal but PayPal also requires their customers to have accounts that they verify for fraud protection. Everyone, uses fraud protection it is just not as obvious.



 
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 02:27 PM #106

Can you please list the payment methods you use in your store. Which of them require billing address from you store in order to process the transaction?

From my experience billing address could be used by a payment method in case it's required for any reason, I mean on payment server. 

 

Haven't you every had your credit card either physically or digitally stolen? Why do people steal credit card information? Simple, because some merchants don't protect themselves for some reason. Do you know what happens when you accept a stolen credit card as a merchant. The perpetrator gets to keep the product they received, the person that had their credit card stolen gets their money back, the merchant that accepted the credit card gets the money taken away and the product they sold is not returned. Speaking from experience. It has happened to me as a merchant in my early naive years of running a web store. It is hasn't happened in an extremely long time because we learned the hard way that we had to protect ourselves better. We and many others will simply be forced to leave CSC if you strip away the ability to protect ourselves.



 
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:05 PM #107

 

It's not a good idea to create extra fields for such rare case. And this can be solved by a comment. 


 

 

It is only rare for those selling software like CSC. Your looking through a very small peep hole.



 
  • tbirnseth
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:39 PM #108

 

It's not a good idea to create extra fields for such rare case. And this can be solved by a comment. 

 

 

I did not find billing address on Amazon. Only multiple shipping profiles. If you can provide me with screen that would help.

 

 

You're not creating, you're taking away.  Many CC processors in US require a billing address that is matched against Address Verification for fraud.  You will lose most of your US customers or freeze them at 4.9.3.SP1.  Comments can't be processed in an automated fashion.  Comments are a lame way to add billing info.  Just consider that in US, billing address is required for most purchases and must match up against the card being used.

 

As I explained, Amazon has multiple payment types to choose from (I.e. different cards tied to the same account).  They are a bit special in that they do their own payment processing rather than using a gateway or aggregator, hence they utilize different fraud detection than AVS (address verification services).  They also have multiple shipping addresses.  You can just as easily order something from Amazon and use a different credit card, then cancel the order.  Go back in and order another product and you'll see the multiple payment methods (note that their payment methods are different than cs-cart.  It would be like having multiple configurations of a single payment method in cs-cart.  I.e. multiple credit cards)

 

If you wanted a more elegant solution, reverse shipping/billing and have the checkbox for use shipping address as billing address.  That will solve 80% of orders.  But no one can afford to loose the orders because you made a change that's inappropriate outside of your locality.

 

Also note that many 3rd party addons reference the customer billing address info for data.  You will break many many addons since their error log will now be filled with Notice: undefined index b_address in their error log (1 for each field referenced).

 

If you're going to break compatibility like this it should have been deferred to 5.0 rather than the current 4.x base.  My addons are intended to run on any 4.x system.  But now, that will be impossible.


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Posted 13 June 2019 - 04:59 PM #109

I just wanted to add to the request to keep the billing address.  I am just getting started with CS Cart and have spent a lot of money to get up and running so I'm really not happy to read this discussion and fear losing my investment because the cart will no longer do what is required.

 

My store is in the US and for fraud protection we require the billing address be entered and matched to the bank's records.  If it doesn't match then the customer is declined. I have both b2b and b2c customers and both will frequently use a different ship to address.  I think the issue could easily be resolved with a check box that says shipping same as billing or just automatically make the shipping same as billing and if it's not then a check box that will open up for a shipping address. I see that on 98% of the online accounts I create.  As a customer, if I am shipping to a different address than my billing address I am not upset to have to enter two addresses at checkout.  However, if they are the same I like the ease of it just automatically populating the shipping fields.

 

I currently use authorize.net and PayPal for my processors.



 
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Posted 13 June 2019 - 05:02 PM #110

You're not creating, you're taking away.  Many CC processors in US require a billing address that is matched against Address Verification for fraud.  You will lose most of your US customers or freeze them at 4.9.3.SP1.  Comments can't be processed in an automated fashion.  Comments are a lame way to add billing info.  Just consider that in US, billing address is required for most purchases and must match up against the card being used.

 

As I explained, Amazon has multiple payment types to choose from (I.e. different cards tied to the same account).  They are a bit special in that they do their own payment processing rather than using a gateway or aggregator, hence they utilize different fraud detection than AVS (address verification services).  They also have multiple shipping addresses.  You can just as easily order something from Amazon and use a different credit card, then cancel the order.  Go back in and order another product and you'll see the multiple payment methods (note that their payment methods are different than cs-cart.  It would be like having multiple configurations of a single payment method in cs-cart.  I.e. multiple credit cards)

 

If you wanted a more elegant solution, reverse shipping/billing and have the checkbox for use shipping address as billing address.  That will solve 80% of orders.  But no one can afford to loose the orders because you made a change that's inappropriate outside of your locality.

 

Also note that many 3rd party addons reference the customer billing address info for data.  You will break many many addons since their error log will now be filled with Notice: undefined index b_address in their error log (1 for each field referenced).

 

If you're going to break compatibility like this it should have been deferred to 5.0 rather than the current 4.x base.  My addons are intended to run on any 4.x system.  But now, that will be impossible.

You could not said it any better, billing address in USA is a must, I sell digital products in one of my stores and I don't need a shipping address but I need a billing address for CC verification and I will not do it without, if this is not going to change I will not upgrade of move on to another solution


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Posted 13 June 2019 - 06:58 PM #111

I am waiting cs-cart team plan about profiling, they did big mistake remove billing, also was mistake store billing/shipping addresses in same db row, i hope they will better solution for this with new profiling

 
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Posted 14 June 2019 - 05:55 AM #112

Why it is a problem to bring back this small radio button?

 

Or let us the old checkout as addon with billing adress?

 

 

 

In my opinion, the onepage checkout should be optional.

I never saw a good one page checkout.

To many informations in one screen is to confusing and brings a lot of problems for the store e.g shipping methods with shipping rate related to a zip code ( in germany we have isle' with 20 zip codes where we need a higher shipping rate, thats the reason we creat a shipping destination "german isle")

 

The one page checkout must reload after every entry the customer did, which can be change the shipping ratre,  or you must click on shipping method to reload (like now). But is this smoother than the checkout in steps? i dont think so.

 

One page checkput sounds good, but isnt. It is easier for customer to guide him step by step.

That why all big stores in germany uses a step by step checkout.


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 06:52 AM #113

Why it is a problem to bring back this small radio button?

 

Or let us the old checkout as addon with billing adress?

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, the onepage checkout should be optional.

I never saw a good one page checkout.

To many informations in one screen is to confusing and brings a lot of problems for the store e.g shipping methods with shipping rate related to a zip code ( in germany we have isle' with 20 zip codes where we need a higher shipping rate, thats the reason we creat a shipping destination "german isle")

 

The one page checkout must reload after every entry the customer did, which can be change the shipping ratre,  or you must click on shipping method to reload (like now). But is this smoother than the checkout in steps? i dont think so.

 

One page checkput sounds good, but isnt. It is easier for customer to guide him step by step.

That why all big stores in germany uses a step by step checkout.

 

It is hard to bring back this radio button because it was programmed in a very bad way anyways. 

 

And regarding the step-by-step checkout, I agree with this point as well. It is very inconvenient for edge scenarios. it is simply next to impossible to properly display information on that small of a screen if you are dealing with edge scenarios. What is even worse is the mobile experience. It is very unclear where in the checkout a user is and it seems like an unending list of fields.

 

We have done A/B tests with this before and it has been proven to be very scenario specific whether a single page checkout actually converts better for you. For merchants who sell products based on a customers impulse (e.g. merchandise of celebrities), a single page checkout tends to outperform a multi-page checkout. However, when merchants sell products that people compare a lot to other products before purchasing, a multi-page checkout simple converts way better than a single-page checkout.

 

@cs-cart Therefore it is imperative that the multi-step checkout stays exactly how it was, as it is very scenario specific what checkout actually converts better. Seeing that these conversion rates can go either way and it is roughly a 50% chance as to what converts better, it seems like you have just cut off 50% of your customers from your future updates. It is essential that these issues get addressed ASAP, no matter how much you like your 'Lite Checkout'. It simply doesn't fit everyone.


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 12:56 PM #114

Amazon is not a good web store to compare checkout methods. Amazon absolutely has billing addresses and it is located in your account details along with the payment methods that you set-up. At checkout they ask what payment method you want to use and where you want to ship to.  They also automatically store your various shipping locations for you.

 

I don't know why you decided that Amazon absolutely has billing address.

Can you please post the screenshot with billing address? Because in my profile I did not find any mention of billing address.

 

 

 

Removing the billing address only works if you are going to force all customers to have an account. This is not a good idea and will cause customers to be lost. Most people only want to set-up accounts with stores that they frequently shop at like Amazon. Additionaly, if you require account set-up, you actually create more steps for the customer to checkout than simply leaving the billing address there.

How is the billing address connected with requirement to have an account? I really don't understand.


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:03 PM #115

Why it is a problem to bring back this small radio button?

 

Or let us the old checkout as addon with billing adress?

 

We have old checkout for now. But I won't bring the billing address back just "because". There should be a reason for this.

 

 

In my opinion, the onepage checkout should be optional.

I never saw a good one page checkout.

To many informations in one screen is to confusing and brings a lot of problems for the store e.g shipping methods with shipping rate related to a zip code ( in germany we have isle' with 20 zip codes where we need a higher shipping rate, thats the reason we creat a shipping destination "german isle")

 

The one page checkout must reload after every entry the customer did, which can be change the shipping ratre,  or you must click on shipping method to reload (like now). But is this smoother than the checkout in steps? i dont think so.

 

One page checkput sounds good, but isnt. It is easier for customer to guide him step by step.

That why all big stores in germany uses a step by step checkout.

Step by step checkout is outdated. The easier checkout is - the more conversional it is. Checkout should be as simple as only possible, and besides it should be displayed correctly on any kind of device - PC, Tablet, Mobile. That is how we get our new checkout. 

Old checkout, the one that was up to 4.9.3 is deprecated and will be discontinued in one of the future versions.


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:06 PM #116

You could not said it any better, billing address in USA is a must, I sell digital products in one of my stores and I don't need a shipping address but I need a billing address for CC verification and I will not do it without, if this is not going to change I will not upgrade of move on to another solution

Hi, can you please write how do you do this validation of billing address? 

Please write a workflow on how it organised on you side.

 

From what I know, all CC payment processors try to move to 3DS Secure, and it's rare case when some payment requires billing address.


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:08 PM #117

I just wanted to add to the request to keep the billing address.  I am just getting started with CS Cart and have spent a lot of money to get up and running so I'm really not happy to read this discussion and fear losing my investment because the cart will no longer do what is required.

 

My store is in the US and for fraud protection we require the billing address be entered and matched to the bank's records.  If it doesn't match then the customer is declined. I have both b2b and b2c customers and both will frequently use a different ship to address.  I think the issue could easily be resolved with a check box that says shipping same as billing or just automatically make the shipping same as billing and if it's not then a check box that will open up for a shipping address. I see that on 98% of the online accounts I create.  As a customer, if I am shipping to a different address than my billing address I am not upset to have to enter two addresses at checkout.  However, if they are the same I like the ease of it just automatically populating the shipping fields.

 

I currently use authorize.net and PayPal for my processors.

Thank you for details, I will go through these payments. 


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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:44 PM #118

I don't know why you decided that Amazon absolutely has billing address.

Can you please post the screenshot with billing address? Because in my profile I did not find any mention of billing address.

 

They don't call it a billing address but they ask for an address to be associated to the new CC payment method.

 

Please see the link below for Amazon help pages.

Resolve a Declined Payment"

 

https://www.amazon.c...odeId=201132750



 
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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:47 PM #119

How is the billing address connected with requirement to have an account? I really don't understand.

 

An account would be required if checkout only had one address because you would need to store the billing address in the user account information just like Amazon does.



 
  • mumbomedia
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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:53 PM #120

In our situation: 
Lot's of customers order a present for someone else.
So they need an invoice address for the invoice and a shipping address to send the package to.