Sno, this is the reason why I suggested the “max size of products in a box”.
The volume idea would work for a lot of people, but people like myself would have a tough time with it.
All my products are dropshipped so I don’t ever see them. My partner has dealt with most of the products I sell over the years, but since we don’t actually have anything in stock I can’t just go out back and measure all the products I sell.
My suppliers provide me weight so this is what I have to go off of.
I’m sure I could approximate the volume thing, but I know the weight is accurate so it’s kind of hard for me to jump into the volume thing.
One product that would be an example of this is the salt I sell. The salt is in a 5 gallon bucket so the volume isn’t much, but the weight is 55.7 lb. This bucket will get shipped by its self. Because of the volume of the bucket, you could actually combine a few of these into a shipment using the method that you guys are talking about, but obviously because of the weight it couldn’t be done.
Now, if there is an option on each product that would allow to have the item shipped separately or combined than this would take care of my salt problem.
I know there is no way that CS-Cart is going to make everyone happy, but I’m just throwing out my “ideas” for whatever they are worth.
Brandon
[quote name=‘imac’]Dear Struck please provide us with more detailed information on it.[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the delay Imac! So that we don’t miss anything, I will start with the basics of UPS/Fedex “List Rates” vs. “Negotiated Rates” as returned in realtime calculations.
When a businesses parcel package shipping volume reaches what they would consider a substantial level, both UPS & Fedex will take notice allowing the opportunity to negotiate rates “specific to your company” which can be quite immensely lower than the rates they post to the general public!
Both UPS & Fedex will allow to have either the list rates, or the specific company negotiated rates returned for realtime calculations through XML. As I recall back, currently in CS-Cart the Negotiated Rates are returned for Fedex and the List Rates are being returned for UPS. My company had to have a custom mod created in order to have the negotiated rates returned to our site from UPS. Most any high volume shipper will need to have this control over exactly which shipping rates are being returned, the higher the volume the more critical this becomes.
Here are some details regarding this from a UPS technical support email obtained a few months back, perhaps it will be helpful to you:
Negotiated Rates are only returned for qualified Shipper Account Numbers and eligibility is determined using the combination of User ID and the Shipper’s Shipper Account Number in the XML request. If the User ID is qualified, both Published Rates and Negotiated Rates are returned. If the User ID or Shipper Account Number is not qualified for Negotiated Rates, only Published Rates are returned in the response.
The approved shipper number needs to be associated with the User ID used in the XML by adding it the Account Summary under Manage MyUPS at UPS.com.
To receive Negotiated Rates some XML additions are required that are slightly different from a basic request.
- The approved User ID associated with the Negotiated Rates must be used in the AccessRequest container along with the Access Key and Password.
- The approved shipper number must be included in the RatingServiceSelectionRequest/Shipment/Shipper/ShipperNumber container.
- The empty node must be included in the RatingServiceSelectionRequest/Shipment/RateInformation container. The RateInformation container may need to be added as well.
- The node is required in the RatingServiceSelectionRequest/Shipment/Shipper/Address container or RatingServiceSelectionRequest/Shipment/ShipFrom/Address container depending on the absence or presence of the ShipFrom container. If the container is present, the node is required there. In the absence of a container the node is required in the container. It is also required in the RatingServiceSelectionRequest/Shipment/ShipTo/Address container.
Please see the XML snippet below for examples of element placement. Note these are in addition to the already required tags for all Rates Tool requests:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXX…XXX
XXXX…XXXX
XXXXXX
XX
XX
XX
5) Negotiated rates are returned in the NegotiatedRates node of the XML response and only at the shipment level. Published rates are still returned in the normal locations.
16.08
6) Lastly, please note that the Customer Integration Environment (CIE) only returns a 1% discount regardless of you actual negotiated rates. You will need to move to production to see your actual rates.
Please contact us if you need any additional assistance.
Michael V.
UPS Technical Support
Sno,
[QUOTE]yikes…
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sound of all this makes me cringe. I sure hope CS isn’t getting rid of the the ability to manually enter flat rate shipping charges[/QUOTE]
Just because they are planning to make improvements which are greatly needed by many of us to “Realtime” shipping rate calculations certainly shouldn’t lead anyone to believe they will drop manual shipping rates which work fine for the most basic shipping needs! 
A customer orders a recipe box, a mug tree and a napkin holder:
recipe box order by itself ships in a 6 x 8 x 10 box
mug tree ordered by itself ships in a 8 x 8 x 14 box
napkin holder ordered by itself ships in a 6 x 6 x 6 box
BUT ordered together they ship in a 8 x 8 x 20 box, again the box size is automatically selected based on product volume NOT weight.
Sno, you should feel fortunate that you have such a basic shipping scenario to deal with on a daily basis. What if a typical order was for 100 recipe boxs, 250 mug trees & 450 napkin holders, & the shipping rate calculations need to be very close to spot on? Are you going to multiply your shipping costs per item x the hundreds, and then attempt to manually calculate for every destination as well as international? When it comes to high volume shipping, and especially dealing b2b, everything becomes far more complex & becomes far more critical to the bottom line profitability of a business.
[QUOTE]On a very important side note, Yes theirs 241 votes for this but only like what 5 people participating. If people are not willing to participate then it’s not worth pursuing in my opinion. Example, I’ve complained for years for CS to fix the banners addon by adding pagination, search and saved search functionality. I’d get more sales if this was fixed then by re-arraigning how shipping works - Sno[/QUOTE]
The reason only 5 people are contributing as of now is most likely because there are many business owners such as myself which are focusing on offsetting the negative effects of this recession, either we focus 1st on our priorities, or we suffer the consequences. I know as a business owner that I wish I had more time right now to contribute to this thread which is very importatnt to my business, but it is a struggle. We spend over $60K per year to UPS alone (equivalent to approx. 95K in list rate pricing), we also use Fedex, USPS Priority Mail and several common carrier trucking companies on a weekly basis, so shipping is critical to us.
[quote name=‘snorocket’]
My comments are I see there is a “The max weight of products in box” setting but should’nt this really be “The max volume of products in box” because the volume will determine how many products will fit into a box NOT the weight?
[/QUOTE]
Dear Sno, as I wrote in my first post:
[quote]Is it necessary to also define the sizes of a product together with the sizes of a box in which to ship this product in order to calculate how many products will fit into one box?[/quote]
We can specify the dimensions of each product and calculate the volume of all products automatically using these settings, thus it will be clear whether all products can be shipped in one box defined in the shipping settings.
But this makes things more complicated, and one may be confused.
Weight is a universal unit and, besides, most of realtime shipping calculations are based on weight. Moreover, people are used to it.
Greetings,
Just to throw into the mix our scenario. We sell products out of a warehouse that does fulfillment exclusively. As a result, they have a particular workflow that we accommodate in order to keep our costs low. Deviations from this incur additional handling costs, which happen.
Recently our client base in B2B has increased as freight costs go up they don’t order enough product from one publisher to justify the expense. I would consider these heavy consumers but not distributors.
I know how large our mix-bag boxes are and their typical maximum weight. I also know our average case weights.
The first problem to overcome is the weight limitations of each form of freight. We temporarily fixed this by calculating realtime UPS freight up to 40lbs (our max parcel weight - any heavier and you start crushing book spines, etc.)
We are able to bump up a multiple per pound over a certain point to make this work, it is reasonably accurate.
If someone orders 178 lbs of books from us, broken cases, full cases or mixed, it would be nice to be able to establish the number of parcels being pumped out. I consider this a benefit for the customer. Otherwise what happens now is, they are charged the UPS rate for a 40lb package using their preferred method/40 and then multiplied by the weight of the total material they purchased. This ends up coming quite close to the actual cost, but errs to our advantage (the customer nearly always overpays in this case.)
Under that 40lbs, however, we assume that all of the products ship in a single box.
This is where the volume of the product becomes important. Some hardcover books have light stock, other have glossy litho stock - it depends. In addition, the dimensions of the set may not conform well to packing in a single box.
So in our case, there are two essential scenarios:
- unbroken uniform cases of the same unit are shipped - this could be fixed amount or fixed weight - somewhat irrelevant. Could even be calc’ed from a single unit weight and case unit count and then sent to realtime calculation.
- mix case of various pieces/count - this needs to take into account the different boxes available, their weight limits and dimensions, and the minimum packing volumes of the units in question.
So for example, there should be a ‘box inventory’ where we could enter our different typical box sizes and the weight limit we’d feel comfortable shipping in those boxes, as well as the packing margin - in other words, a usable space entry. I raise this because real-time calcs will want the outside box dimensions, but for people like myself who try to allow a 1.5" packing material cushion around internal products - my interior usable space is less.
Then for each product, there should be an option to flag ‘ship separately’ and include product dimensions. If a product is flagged ships separately, the cart picks the box with adequate internal space and uses that to perform the realtime calc. If it doesn’t it gets thrown in the stack of products that need to be shipped.
The stack then gets maximized and stacked largest lateral area on the bottom to smallest at the top. If the stack is too heavy for a single box, what do you do?
In real life, we sometimes economize by filling a large box and then trimming the top smaller items into a smaller box. However the most cost effective way over a certain weight is to balance the shipment out weightwise over however many boxes it takes (assuming the dimensions are the same).
Perhaps there could be a flag to fill a large box first or fill all parcels evenly?
I am just thinking through our workflow…
Please anyone please chime in… perhaps I am way off but this is how it works selling books and dvds, etc. as we do.
Dear Brandon,
[quote name=‘brandonvd’]
One product that would be an example of this is the salt I sell. The salt is in a 5 gallon bucket so the volume isn’t much, but the weight is 55.7 lb. This bucket will get shipped by its self. Because of the volume of the bucket, you could actually combine a few of these into a shipment using the method that you guys are talking about, but obviously because of the weight it couldn’t be done.
Now, if there is an option on each product that would allow to have the item shipped separately or combined than this would take care of my salt problem.
I know there is no way that CS-Cart is going to make everyone happy, but I’m just throwing out my “ideas” for whatever they are worth.
Brandon[/QUOTE]
So, as far as I can see, the “max items per box” and “ship in separate box” options on the product page can solve you problem, can’t they?
Also, I see that the “The max weight of products in box” option of a shipping configuration can be helpful to you.
Glad to hear that!
Dear Struck,
[quote name=‘Struck’]Sorry for the delay Imac! So that we don’t miss anything, I will start with the basics of UPS/Fedex “List Rates” vs. “Negotiated Rates” as returned in realtime calculations.
…
Michael V.
UPS Technical Support[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the information. It is quite clear and detailed. I’ve added the information about the Negotiated rates support by UPS and Fedex calculators to my first post.
[quote name=‘imac’]Dear Struck,
Thank you for the information. It is quite clear and detailed. I’ve added the information about the Negotiated rates support by UPS and Fedex calculators to my first post.[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much Imac, these overall improvements to the way shipping is handled will make CS-Cart a much more attractive option for many businesses.
[quote name=‘Struck’]Thank you very much Imac, these overall improvements to the way shipping is handled will make CS-Cart a much more attractive option for many businesses.[/QUOTE]
There you go Struck , I think your wish might come through after all. If anybody can write a post like yours above with so much detail, we can a lot of wishes come through
Dear friends,
The version in which it is planned to improve the functionality of the real-time shipping methods has been changed from 2.1.2 to 2.1.3. The point is that we will not be able to develop and test these changes till the release of version 2.1.2, which is scheduled for the beginning of November due to the Multivendor edition (For more information, please visit https://www.cs-cart.com/multivendor.html).
We do it this way to release each version of the Professional edition and that of the Multivendor one at the same time and make them coincide with one another.
We apologize for this confusion!
Thanks for understanding.
Another suggestion that may work is to handle combined/separate box shipping as compatibility classes.
Ie. you determine which class of products can ship with another class and which cannot. Those that can be shipped with another class get put in the same box, while the class of product that cannot be shipped together ends up in a separate box.
This may end up being complex, but it may work better in real life since even knowing sizes of products may not help determine combined shipping possibility since some products may be hollow, or odd shaped and can thus easily accommodate another set of smaller products “inside” or beside the large product in the same box.
Also, any combined shipping solution must be able to work with dimensional weight shipping cost calculation that I believe is also being implemented.
Victor
From what I am reading, this new functionality would be “almost†perfect, but not entirely.
Basically, what I need is this:
We have about 500 items. Each one of our items has a “master carton/ship by itself†amount, so for item A, the “ship by itself†amount is 500, and the box that it would ship in is 15†L x 10†W x 2†H, and for item B it might be 1000, with a different box size. I need to tell the program, in the product set up page that if 500 of item A is ordered, it will ship in a box by itself, the dimensions of the box of which I will enter on the product setup page. The weight of that box would be determined as usual, the amount of items ordered times the weight of each item. If somebody ordered 600 of item A, 500 would ship by itself, and 100 would ship with other items in the box that I set up in the UPS shipping setup page.
See actual example below:
Main UPS setup page: Standard box size: 20 x 15 x 4, maximum weight per box 60 lbs.
Item A, weighs 0.1 lb, ships by itself only if 500 are ordered, in a box 15 x 10 x 2
Item B, weighs 0.2 lbs, ships by itself only if 300 are ordered, in a box 7 x 5 x 1
If a customer orders 700 of item A and 325 of item B, we would have the following shipment:
One box of item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
One box of item B, 300 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 60 lbs
One box with 200 of item A (20lbs) & 25 of item B (5lbs), for a total of 25 lbs in a box 20 x 15 x 4
I just started using CS-Cart & I love it, however, I really need this shipping functionality. Hopefully this will give you some ideas as to how to configure it.
[quote name=‘vmajor’]Another suggestion that may work is to handle combined/separate box shipping as compatibility classes.
Ie. you determine which class of products can ship with another class and which cannot. Those that can be shipped with another class get put in the same box, while the class of product that cannot be shipped together ends up in a separate box.
This may end up being complex, but it may work better in real life since even knowing sizes of products may not help determine combined shipping possibility since some products may be hollow, or odd shaped and can thus easily accommodate another set of smaller products “inside” or beside the large product in the same box.
Also, any combined shipping solution must be able to work with dimensional weight shipping cost calculation that I believe is also being implemented.
Victor[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is a good idea.
But I’m afraid it is not worth integrating at the moment because:
- this task is really a difficult one, and the realization of such functionality can take us months;
- most of users have hundreds of products, and it is really complicated to define the relationship among them. It will take a lot of time.
- such a complex functionality may confuse some users.
[quote name=‘kamaladg’]From what I am reading, this new functionality would be “almost†perfect, but not entirely.
Basically, what I need is this:
We have about 500 items. Each one of our items has a “master carton/ship by itself†amount, so for item A, the “ship by itself†amount is 500, and the box that it would ship in is 15†L x 10†W x 2†H, and for item B it might be 1000, with a different box size. I need to tell the program, in the product set up page that if 500 of item A is ordered, it will ship in a box by itself, the dimensions of the box of which I will enter on the product setup page. The weight of that box would be determined as usual, the amount of items ordered times the weight of each item. If somebody ordered 600 of item A, 500 would ship by itself, and 100 would ship with other items in the box that I set up in the UPS shipping setup page.
See actual example below:
Main UPS setup page: Standard box size: 20 x 15 x 4, maximum weight per box 60 lbs.
Item A, weighs 0.1 lb, ships by itself only if 500 are ordered, in a box 15 x 10 x 2
Item B, weighs 0.2 lbs, ships by itself only if 300 are ordered, in a box 7 x 5 x 1
If a customer orders 700 of item A and 325 of item B, we would have the following shipment:
One box of item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
One box of item B, 300 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 60 lbs
One box with 200 of item A (20lbs) & 25 of item B (5lbs), for a total of 25 lbs in a box 20 x 15 x 4
I just started using CS-Cart & I love it, however, I really need this shipping functionality. Hopefully this will give you some ideas as to how to configure it.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see your point.
For your situation, this improved functionality would work in the following manner.
- First you would need to define the size of the box for “item A” on its detailed page (see the screenshot in my first post) 15 x 10 x 2, set “max items per box” = 500, and select the “ship in separate box” checkbox.
- Then you would need to define the size of the box for “item B” on its detailed page 7 x 5 x 1, set “max items per box” = 300, and select the “ship in separate box” checkbox.
- Finally, you would need to set the box size in general real-time shippings settings to 20 x 15 x 4 and “max shippment weight” more than 25lbs.
Hence, there would be 4 shipments instead of 3 shipments:
[color=darkgrey]
Shipment 1 - box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
Shipment 2 - box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs;
Shipment 3 - box for item B, 300 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 60 lbs;
Shipment 4 - box for item B, 25 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 5 lbs.
[/color]
And here we have a problem with “ship in separate box” checkbox: if it is selected, the box defined in the global shipping settings won’t be used for this product.
Assuming the “ship in separate box” option would work only if the number of ordered items were equal to or exceeded the value of “max items per box”, shipments 3 and 4 would be combined into one box and sent with the same shipment. Hence, there would be only 3 shipment. Just as you have described:
[color=darkgrey]
Shipment 1 - box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
Shipment 2 - box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs
Shipment 3 - one box containing 200 of item A (20lbs) & 25 of item B (5lbs), for a total of 25 lbs in a box 20 x 15 x 4.
[/color]
An alternate solution would be to replace the options “ship in separate box” & “max items per box” with the option “Number of items to be shipped in a separate box with the dimensons defined bellow” (see the screenshot). That is how it would work:
[color=blue]- to ship only 500 items in a separate box, you would need to set the option to 500,500. And 499 items would be still shipped in the box defined in global shipping options:[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 20 x 15 x 4 box weight 20 lbs.
[color=blue]- to ship 199+ in separate box, you would need to set the option to 199,500 (500 is the maximum value):[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs.
[color=blue]- to always ship products in separate boxes, you would need to set the option to 0,500. In this case, all items would always be shipped in a separate box defined on the product detailed page. So there would be 2 shipemnts:[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs
Any suggestions or comments, guys?
[quote name=‘imac’]Ok, I see your point.
For your situation, this improved functionality would work in the following manner.
- First you would need to define the size of the box for “item A” on its detailed page (see the screenshot in my first post) 15 x 10 x 2, set “max items per box” = 500, and select the “ship in separate box” checkbox.
- Then you would need to define the size of the box for “item B” on its detailed page 7 x 5 x 1, set “max items per box” = 300, and select the “ship in separate box” checkbox.
- Finally, you would need to set the box size in general real-time shippings settings to 20 x 15 x 4 and “max shippment weight” more than 25lbs.
Hence, there would be 4 shipments instead of 3 shipments:
[color=darkgrey]
Shipment 1 - box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
Shipment 2 - box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs;
Shipment 3 - box for item B, 300 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 60 lbs;
Shipment 4 - box for item B, 25 items in the box, 7 x 5 x 1, box weight 5 lbs.
[/color]
And here we have a problem with “ship in separate box” checkbox: if it is selected, the box defined in the global shipping settings won’t be used for this product.
Assuming the “ship in separate box” option would work only if the number of ordered items were equal to or exceeded the value of “max items per box”, shipments 3 and 4 would be combined into one box and sent with the same shipment. Hence, there would be only 3 shipment. Just as you have described:
[color=darkgrey]
Shipment 1 - box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
Shipment 2 - box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs
Shipment 3 - one box containing 200 of item A (20lbs) & 25 of item B (5lbs), for a total of 25 lbs in a box 20 x 15 x 4.
[/color]
An alternate solution would be to replace the options “ship in separate box” & “max items per box” with the option “Number of items to be shipped in a separate box with the dimensons defined bellow” (see the screenshot). That is how it would work:
[color=blue]- to ship only 500 items in a separate box, you would need to set the option to 500,500. And 499 items would be still shipped in the box defined in global shipping options:[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 20 x 15 x 4 box weight 20 lbs.
[color=blue]- to ship 199+ in separate box, you would need to set the option to 199,500 (500 is the maximum value):[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs;
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs.
[color=blue]- to always ship products in separate boxes, you would need to set the option to 0,500. In this case, all items would always be shipped in a separate box defined on the product detailed page. So there would be 2 shipemnts:[/color]
- box for item A, 500 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 50 lbs
- box for item A, 200 items in the box, 15 x 10 x 2, box weight 20 lbs
Any suggestions or comments, guys?[/QUOTE]
Nice job. This is EXACTLY what I need. Hopefully, this would work for others as well.
I thought one of the main issues at stake here was to be able to properly cover shipping costs for oversized packages. One of my client sites sells to retailers, and the box sizes are often over the max size allowed by UPS for standard rates, even though the weight is under.
Here’s a quote from [url]http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/oversize.html[/url]
[QUOTE]If you have more than one package to be shipped, consider each package a separate shipment for weight calculation purposes.
Determine the Actual Weight: Use any standard scale and round up any fraction of a pound to the next full pound.
Determine Dimensional Weight:
For UPS Ground Shipments: If the cubic size of the package is 5,184 or larger, divide the cubic size by 194 to determine dimensional weight in pounds. If the cubic size is less than 5,184, use the actual weight of the package.
For UPS Air Shipments: Divide the cubic size by 194 to determine dimensional weight in pounds. Any fraction of a pound will be calculated at the next highest rate.
Determine Billable Weight: Compare each package’s actual weight to its dimensional weight. The larger of the two weights is the billable weight and should be used to calculate the rate.
If you have a multiple-package shipment, add the cubic sizes for all of the packages together. The total is the cubic size of your shipment.
Large Package Conditions
Your UPS package is considered a Large Package when its length plus girth [(2 x width) + (2 x height)] combined exceeds 130 inches (330cm), but does not exceed the maximum UPS size of 165 inches (419cm)[/QUOTE]
We can’t simply pass along the weight of our shipment; we need to be able to pass along the dimension in order to get a proper rate back from UPS.
–Ken
Dear Ken,
[quote name=‘ken@river-design.com’]I thought one of the main issues at stake here was to be able to properly cover shipping costs for oversized packages. One of my client sites sells to retailers, and the box sizes are often over the max size allowed by UPS for standard rates, even though the weight is under.
Here’s a quote from [url]http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/oversize.html[/url]
We can’t simply pass along the weight of our shipment; we need to be able to pass along the dimension in order to get a proper rate back from UPS.
–Ken[/QUOTE]
As far as you can see from the previous posts, we will send box dimensions, and it will be possible to set box sizes for each product, if necessary.
The feature you are talking about is called “Dimensional Weight”. It will be supported in the new shipping functionality.
I am a new CS-Cart user and I am excited the dimensional weight and large package feature is being developed. This should cure the countless headaches I have with shipping.
This is a very urgent need, so I am curious if anyone may know the approximate release date? No posts here for over two months; I hope that is not a bad sign. I will need a custom mod if it is still a month or two out.
Mkgriver,
[QUOTE]Dear friends,
The version in which it is planned to improve the functionality of the real-time shipping methods has been changed from 2.1.2 to 2.1.3.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully we will see this soon! 